if you pay on a margin that you don't have insurance. i think what ultimately -- i'm not saying you should let economists run the world. would be disastrous. but the health care system would be one where we had insurance against catastrophic things but more or less people pay on the margin for the health care. it would be politically the least popular kind of set up you could ever have but we would have more rational decisions. ..

>> senators are continuing their debate of the health care bill through the weekend. our regular booktv schedule will be pre-empted during these rare senate sessions with booktv programs resuming after the debate. watch the senate debate on health care live gavel-to-gavel on c-span2. to read the senate bill and the house version plus watch video-on-demand go to c-span's health care hub.

>> booktv's in depth will air live on our companion network c-span on sunday. c-span two will cover this senate session like to continue debate on health care. you can see the full three hour interview with author joy they can live at noon sunday on c-span. christopher andrew founding co-editor of the journal intelligence and national security presents a history of mi5 the british security service. mr. ander was the first independent historian allowed access to mi5's archives. the international spy museum in washington d.c. hosts the hour-long event. >> good afternoon everybody. while come to the international spy museum. i am delighted to have you here. i think you are in for a very terrific session, let me put it that way.

i included a podcast with our distinguished guests and i urge you to listen to that too if you enjoy the lecture today. i would make one request, if you would turn off your electronic devices, cell phones, pda's and so forth. it can interfere with the powerpoint and the applications that we very much appreciate you doing that. alright? okay, thank you. there will be time for professor andrew's presentation and there will be time for q&a and we will ensure there is time for a book signing for those who came for that as well, and the books can be purchased in the back. last thursday, the shooting at ft. hood royal the country and they highlighted once again the challenge we face in coping with even identifying islamic extremists. in great britain that task would

be undertaken to a large extent by mi5 and for many americans, mi5 is a rather mysterious part of the fbi, part cia but in the end a uniquely british institution. there was consideration after the 9/11 commission recommendation were delivered to creating and mi5 in this country. in the end the decision was made to expand the fbi's existing national security decision. now, to mark this centenary of mi5's founding in 1909, christopher andrew was selected to write his authorized history. that is the first time this has been done by any leading intelligence or security organization. christopher is a distinguished professor of modern and

contemporary history. he is former chair of the faculty of history at cambridge university and has been a visiting professor at harvard and a frequent presenter of bbc tv and radio documentaries. his 14 previous books include the mitrokhin papers which is perhaps the major source of the secret history of the soviet kgb. i am very pleased to say he is a member emeritus of the founding board of this museum and another member the first woman to serve as director general of mi5 so we are just delighted to have you here. please welcome christopher andrew. [applause] >> well, this is the most

self-serving photographs-- can people hear me? anyway, people can hear me. the most self-serving photograph i am likely to see. in the birth of the television series, that is a bit of bassler in the united states so i am happy to say in the united states it is called mi5 juarez i noticed in the small print the mi5, not 95 or the small print at the bottom, mi5, not 95. they search for truth and the rest is a lie. this is the only authorized photograph indeed the only photographs ever taken of anybody entering the headquarters of mi5. you may wonder why that strange expression is on my face. it is going to be a difficult day. i am having to decide what shelley look at today, should it be more of the 50 volumes of anthony blunt's personal files

or should i turn towards the i.r.a. and actually there has not been a dull day ever since i have been there. now, the other thought that this strange expression on my face their is that anyone who writes about, particularly anyone who writes about british intelligence is deeply conscious of the fact that the intelligence is the only profession in the history of the world in which a fictional character who never lived is that least 100 times better known than anyone who ever lived. and of course james bond. we have brits, we may look a bit but the up and i haven't even undone the buttons on my jacket but i have secret fantasies in the global appeal that i think very few other nationalities have. the idea that a couple of years ago for example the number-one best-seller in france would be a book called harry potter.

even schoolchildren in brooklyn are brought up to have secret fantasies of the kind which our friends in the european union will never come close to. one of the things that surprised me when i went to these wonderful wonderful files the other in the hundreds of thousands and millions inside tim's house is that actually came across one or two people who did things that even bond would not have done. here is one. look at that. it is not a very good photograph. it was taken before the second world war. anyone who was then to the house of parliament in london will the c-net. eight is westminster bridge but nobody was attempting to fly a plane beneath that. he was known as the-- for two reasons one that he was a bit mad and secondly he was a major. he had been-- [laughter] he had been a fighter pilot ace

during the first world war and he flew under every bridge in london. britain has always had esteemed eccentrics though he was not even prosecuted until after the second world war but hill in the 1930's heard about the exploits of the mat bridge your? yes, the man on the right here. you will all recognize him. his name is it tells hitler and he caught a lot of trouble before the second world war. christopher troopers the men on the left and there are a couple of the bull gentleman acer zen between the two, so after being invited over to germany and talking to the fear for a couple of hours in munich, as soon as he got back, christopher draper was after he would kindly spy for german intelligence. and he said absolutely fine. stopping only to ask mi5 if it would be in fact absolutely fine and they said it would be

absolutely fine and that he needed to do things. one is they pass the information which they gave to him and secondly to provide all the contact details that he was given as to how to make contact with german intelligence. that actually is the hitherto unknown origins of the double cross system. there were lots of-- thereafter but it was through christopher draper that mi5 learned how existing spies, real spies, not the allegiance made contact with german intelligence. i won't go into the details, we discovered about snow and the rest is the most successful deception in the entire history of warfare and i don't think that that is an exaggeration. but, you know you don't just suddenly learn deception of light. there we are. this is the beginning of the first world war. at the beginning of the first world war, mi5 only gad 17 staff

members and that was including the caretaker of the so there was a very rapid expansion which brought to london in numbers of 854. this is the first man to us recruited. he is only 20. one of the things them both of the wars which extinguishes british intelligence is the willingness to recruit bright and also very young talented people. this man's name is william hensley cook. he was recruited in august 1940. he was only 20 at the time. he had been educated in germany. his father was british and his mother was german. and he was taken on. you probably can't see from where you are but the picture is in the book. the problem was that he spoke with the strong german accent and in august 1914 even if you had eight-- you were suspected

and we will provide further details on that, so the only way that he could be allowed into mi5 headquarters which was in the war office, was having alpa little sends which you can barely see which says he is a jump-- englishmen said by the head of mi5 but that was any one of his personae. at the age of 20, i'm not clear that anybody has had a more successful career in deception than this man. there he is as a german officer. there wasn't a single german p.o.w. who suspected he was not in fact himself a german p.o.w. and of course when he spoke english it was with a german accent but also there were a limited number of enemy nationals as they were called, who were allowed to carry on living in london during the first world war in the metropolitan police gave him a pass to carry on living in london and this one is it.

if however describes him as well hum edward, the british police could not spell edward so it is edward, and again there wasn't a single enemy national that suspected him, so by the age of 21 this man had deceived more people than any other 21-year-old i think in british history. we british are very good at deceiving people. oh yes, this is verlan cal. burnham cal lasted far too long. the two people who stayed in the job longest in the history of the 20th century in an official position in both the united states and britain were head of internal security, j. edgar hoover or as we call them in britain sergei hacker hoover because an unknown to most of the people in the united states we did a wartman on ariri night because he could be rather irritable. the only way of calming him down

was to call him sir edgar hoover. we have never done that since because frankly no subsequent director of the fbi has been nearly as irritable. but, let's get him. he was the best ever to become-- so far as i know. he had translators qualifications in chinese. it is not easy getting to china in 1909. he had translator qualifications in russia and he spoke the more straightforward languages that's all of us speak. can talk about that, haven't got time. oh yes i related about this because peter a moment ago talked about stella rimington. well, gender historians in britain leave seriously the president on interesting lives so they have not noticed that the cutting edge in gender history is actually mi5 because

britain is not noted as a place where the glass ceiling was cracked and broken at any point in the 20 a century but actually begin um at mi5. stella rimington when she became director general of the mi5 in 1992 was the first female head of the intelligence, maj intelligence agency and what has not been noticed is it began in the first world war. this is during the first world war and i will explain in a moment. what happened during the first world war is that the men in mi5 had this slightly sexist but nonetheless very interesting idea, why don't we have the cleverist secretaries in world history? nobody had asked the question before so even though the mi5 did not have a direct link as far as recruits was concerned with kgb until the 1950's. mi5 during the first world war recruited men to read from the

two women's colleges at oxford university and from earl holly college at the university of london which was in those days and all women's college and the ladies' college which was the best known independent school for women, so for the first time in british history, the women are likely to be better educated than the men and also come from higher up in social class. what is this produce? it produces pictures like this. this was the drawing done during the first world war and the caption is ms. thinks she is right. being talked to by his much more alert secretary who is 20 something, and it is all being explain to himself for the first time in british history in mi5 during the first world war the financial control responsible for forward planning as well as keeping the accounts was a woman. now it is a long and winding

path from the women who got that job, ms. appropriately called perhaps ms. masterson, to stella rimington, but it began there. that is really interesting and i haven't gotten any time to talk about that at all. [laughter] anyone who has read-- memoirs then there are a significant number of people who will remember that the woman he picks out, the only person that might have gone on to him is jane archer. her nagin name was jane sizemore. she joined mi5 as the secretary's straight from school at the age of 16 in 1916. this is her in 1924. she is qualified in her spare time as a barrister and she is the leading soviet expert an officer in mi5. it could not have happened anywhere else in britain.

it is a long and i repeat myself, winding path which leads from james sizemore in jane archer to stella rimington but it begin here. that is one of the covers we used. he was a bbc naturalist but we don't use it in a more nowadays. this is ambassador agents, the name at the bottom says puddler but his name was wolf gain. fresen the mi5 understood nazi germany better than anywhere else in britain was that it had penetrated the german embassy. he has been interestingly bizarre career after the second world war but it was before the second world war, so we explain to mi5 that if he would attempt to appease the furer you would make if you are more likely to start the second world war then

calmed him down. and then as i discovered when talking on some radio or television program after the last couple of days, i can't tell you the words he passed on to kill, who passed on to the intellectually challenged british prime minister whose name was of course neville chamberlain. neville chamberlain did not listen to a word that mi5 said but there is one technique for getting to a policymaker who will not listen otherwise and that is to tell a policymaker that his or her major opponent is insulting him or her. there is no policymaker in the history of the world that will not listen to that advice o'kelly who-- a retiring individual and the most detrick thing he ever did was to write an article for a boarding magazine but he was so shocked

by coming out from his secret life that he never did that again. so come for him the end of 1938 after munich the most shameful moment with the possible exception of the crazies series episode, he decided to tell neville chamberlain that if you are characteristically referred to him by an eight letter word beginning with a and ending with e and he passed it by the foreign office were the extremely well brought up lord halifax it was british foreign secretary who had never seen that were written before under blinded three times in red. folks this is the first time in less time in british history that that word particularly underlined three times in red has been passed by british intelligence agency to try to get him to pay attention. talk about telling truth to power. i think this is actually the ultimate example. now we will have to race through. that is an interesting

photograph. i will talk about it a little bit. during the second world war, mi5 has one of the retirees, who were so young that some are still around, who i have interviewed. describe from prison to palace, mi5 needed a bigger headquarters at the beginning of the second world war and the only one available was the main level prison. this was inside and it was not quite as comfortable as it looked because the gence inside did not realize that there were candles on the outside so was only after a number of people at spent the night locked in the cells that they realize. that is really interesting. that is exceptionally interesting and that also is really really interesting. i can't tell you how interesting that is. i could talk all day about that one, but yes that is subfor

keeping track of people from trinity college cambridge, i don't no, one of the classics by-- that is one of the people. this is betty read. i think the target that was most continuously brought up by mi5 in its entire history was the headquarters of the british communist party from 1942, the place was comprehensively but until they find they disappeared into oblivion at some point in the 1980's and had to sell the headquarters. this was the woman, betty reed, who was in charge of enforcing ideological conformity amongst the khalif in his you can see from the set of heard josh use not somebody that you would like to have fallen into. i am going to talk about him. he is one of the most

interesting effectives in the beginning of the 1970's. and the kgb was so short of ideas that they had actually worked out a plan to land special forces on the coast of your sure. whether the good people of yorkshire would have noticed i don't no, but there we are. now this is actually turning point. sometimes the simplest ideas of the best. one of the great acronyms id british history is kids, keep it simple stupak. the way to deal with resch and espionage was to expel huge numbers of soviet intelligence officers but the great country which i have the country of representing was the only one who actually did it so there were 105 people sentences to one of the worst experiences in history and that is flying on what used to be call them britain earl flopped. any way they all made it back.

oh yes, this is i would say the standards of physical fitness we insist on an mi5 and i regret to say neither the fbi or the cia played cricket and that is the british example, but the man at the back who has the kind of haircut that one normally associates with a student in the late 1960's is steven lyndon who is a decent fellow and who became-- immediately from 1996 to 2002 and had the best idea that anyone has ever had in the whole history of british intelligence and that is to say commissioning an official history of mi5. thank you. i am sorry if i sound slightly partisan and there is sir patrick walter in the middle. they were off to play against the team that i cannot identify and could not that conceivably been mi but i can't possibly

comment. and i can explain what it is except it is a good thing to do. this becomes interesting. i have just that time to talk about it. i merely let myself time to talk about tourism. mi5 was found solely with counter espionage. nowadays it stands only three and a half% of its resources on counterespionage in deals with counterterrorism but because that there is no collective memory and because it was not written down at the time i have discovered that even though i think that an operational level, i think there are good reasons for my bias, i think mi5 is rather good at it. i was amazed when i saw it in history. i could have find a colleague who actually understood mi5 counterterrorism phyllis young.

it wasn't a target for code with extreme terrorist target, and what is generally, is that the founders of the future state of israel who wish not without reason the british to leave as quickly as possible blew up the british headquarters in palestine. that is to say the king david hotel in jerusalem, and then halfway to britain a few months later they blew up the british embassy in from which was completely destroyed except for the stable. what is entirely forgotten is that the real target was neither the king david hotel bar the british embassy in jerusalem. it was white hall itself and this was due more less-- in the newspaper article and he did plant a bomb which did kill even more people then explosive killed in the king david hotel

but she did not pryor properly so this made such a traumatic impact on mi5 that it was just its finest hour and it dealt mainly with the assistance of british zionist who did not like begin. very successfully with the zionist plots extreme zionist plots, letter bombs that were sent to people as well as the attempt to blow up white hall, but mi5's response was one of the lowest points in the history of mi5. that is to say that for the next 20 years, it refused to ed ned jewish to mi5, from the belief that they had dual loyalties to the state of israel as well as the state of britain. if they looked more closely at their files with would have seen is how much british zionist

informed in the last terrorist organization in the history of the world as well as-- so this is not a happy moment in the history of mi5 but i have talked about it and i have talked about it frankly. the loss of the collective memory in counter-terrorism is i think pretty bizarre. right, i will come back to that in a moment. this is the biggest mi5 deployment against the i.r.a. in the first 20 years of the troubles but it is not where you think it might have been. it was not in mainland britain. it was not in northern ireland. as sherman kent said years and years ago over half a century ago, there is a price to be paid

if any organization does not know its own history. aidid the little bit like the price paid by an individual at the individual forgets his own personal experiences. so in the 1970's the first troubles, i have not forecast a single document which even refers to the troubles of 50 years before. had referred to the troubles that 50 years before, the period of the easter rising of the state of the republican 1922 what would it have said? and what it said military intelligence did not have its act together, the two were not communicating with each other and that there was no clearly defined role of mi5 in the zionist. what happened in the 1970's? absolutely the same. this is in near perfect example of the old historical maxim of those who do not understand past

mistakes are condemned to repeat them but the main confusion is the result of a revolt of the french government. it is almost beyond belief now that any terrorist threat to the united kingdom, with one exception, which i will come into in a moment, the lead intelligence role belong to mi5 but the purely stark, the fact that the metropolitan police force in london had been founded as the special irish branch, any threat to mainland britain a lead intelligence role belong to the i.r.a-- if only. [laughter] belong to the metropolitan police. the buzzart fact that if the i.r.a. was threatening the british army, if it was threatening-- if it was seeking

arms and money from the united states which of course it did then mi5 had the lead role but it that happened in mainland britain it was a mess, so this is the one that was monitored from the day she arrived on the rock of gibraltar in 1988, as you see. she did not set out to be particularly in conspicuous either in her choice of clothing or hair, even longer than stephen lender's. that was one of the softest british targets anywhere in the world was the gibralter because the gibralter garrison hattie change once a week and it shows how closely she was under surveillance. so this is the mi5 surveillance departments. following her on one particular

saturday. the following day you can see the cathedral and the top left-hand corner. she went into the cathedral. she prayed for some time. she lit a candle. mi5 ned recognize that she believed in the justice of the homicidal cause that had it not been for the fact that john major who came from the lower middle class and therefore felt really upset by the attempt to assassinate him in 1991 in a way that margaret thatcher believed that your-- and that mi5 was given a lead intelligencer frohlich ins the irca in london and the rest but i actually think that's the i.r.a. would have succeeded in destroying the city of london as europe's major financial capital, so the huge air that it committed with attempting to assassinate john major. right, that we move on, not before time come to the current

problem. this is islamists terrorism. there are two main conclusions that i have arrived at that mi5 and one could say washington as a whole was far too late to realize the threat from transnational islamic terrorism. why? because it suffered from what i have called-- their colleagues in cambridge and colleagues in washington who don't pay attention to what you say and lessee use an acronym and i have had to invent an acronym for this which is historical attention span deficit disorder which is believing the experience of previous generations might have relevance to the current generation which is a pretty strange idea to be putting across at the end of the 20th century, but the few people who got islamist terrorism rights in the mid-1980s,

mid-1990s, he was ahead of any western intelligence service i know of on either side of the plant. he coined the phrase holy terror. i got it right. the only reason i got it right was because i realize that bruce hoffman was right and i was even more hoffman night then kaufman was. before 9/11 he began to waiver and i did not waiver at all. i was producing the fall hoffman on the eve of 9/11 and mi5 will show that. stowe mal for the hidden history. what i think is not realized in the united states. two things. one is the plans to attack the u.k. began before 9/11 and the first attack of u.k. was defeated before 9/11. secondly that in recent years, the most important of foiled attacks against the u.k. by islamist terrorism was a skeel beyond 9/11 so this was before

9/11. this is the first under the first islamist factory in britain, but fortunately he was under surveillance. the reason 9/11 words is the perpetrators were not under surveillance. the reason that didn't work is that aberdeen was under surveillance. this is a surveillance photograph. this is the first big attempted attack against the u.k. by islamists terrorist after 9/11. on the right there is omar khai am. he could make bones but he could not detonate them so on the left-hand side, there is the first canadian islamic terrorist to attract worldwide attention, who is now spending an awful long time in a canadian jail. the photograph that heathrow for a surveillance photograph.

this one is the past but it is also the future. this is a characteristic example of a terrorist who is terribly difficult to track down. this is-- wise he's so difficult to track down? he had gone to british intelligence school and he was a hindu but he had privately converted to islam. he was selected by mohammed sheikh to this group when he had been selected as somebody who would not arouse suspicion in britain. what was his aim? his ame was, even though in the short term he was prepared to accept lower levels of destruction, is to explode the first 30 bum in world history in britain. i think this particular case, you can see his code name on the right, which was field study and

again a surveillance photograph encapsulates the difficulties. at the request of mi5 moved and it wasn't any usable evidence against him in a court of law. what i think and what i thought when i joined mi5 in 2003 was that there would be a whole series of cases in which mi5 asked the special-- to millben because there were threats to life but in which there would not be evidence used in a court of law and therefore whole series of cases where people were arrested and released in the popular you would be that mi5 was paranoid and so on. i have been amazed to the degree that this is not happen but this is the case that encapsulates the difficult. at the moment he was arrested there was no usable evidence against him whatever. the only reason he is spending the rest of his life in prison is that it is possible to break the computer codes that he was

using on his computer. so, and i think even though i had intended to go on for a little bit longer i will end with one final word at this point. look folks, there are two possibilities. this is going to be the last attempt by it is any islamic terrorist on any side of the atlantic to get ahold of, to manufacture, to explode a dirty bomb. that possibility is so remote that one doesn't even need to consider it. he is the future. we will all live to see an attempt to explode a dirty bomb in washington or london or both places, so we are now facing even though it is successes over the last few years being rather low then they were a couple of years ago, we are still not facing the potentially most dangerous terrorist offensive and i choose my words carefully, in the history of the world. the fbi in mi5 had better be

good. thank you very much. [applause] >> we do have time for some questions. >> frank fletcher. my question is, could you speak to this special relationship between mi5 and the fbi and you might want to comment also on the relations between mi5 and mi. >> yes. well unfortunately the 24 hours necessary to answer that question will force me to be fairly brief but j. edgar hoover is the only foreign counterintelligence officer who has ever been awarded the night could. the only example i think i have

time, but i will respond to the mi5 fsis question is the first aircraft allowed into u.s. airspace after 9/11 was the day after 9/11. it was the 12th of december of 2001 and contained the chief of the fsis, the deputy director-general of mi5, stephen land had to stay behind to brief blair, and also the director of gchq which just about everybody here knows is nsa and they were quist strayed off two langle four extensive and pretty fraught discussions. so far as mi5 and sis is concerned follicly to my surprise i was allowed to include some statistics in the book. if there is anywhere in the world the foreign intelligence

service had a domestic security service which nowadays in the 21st century consoles more frequently and with more positive results, i am not aware of what those two agencies might be. beared ben plan viewpoints in the past for which that was not sure but there was a statistical analysis which i quoted in 2001 and i am happy to leave you with those statistics. >> i was wondering if you could comment on how you approach the project. you noted there was a tremendous number of files and the agency has been at work for 100 years. how did you start thinking about attacking this amount of stuff and a subsidiary question, did you and fact of personal-- or did you request materials from staff officers? if you could tell a little bit about it. >> let me start with the question first which was how i

had access. i'm about to talk about something which makes me feel probably british. in mi5 headquarters there is a small i would say 100 scale light railway. it is a little monorail and if you can hear it and those of you talev been in mi5 headquarters mabe wanted with the buzzing was from time to time. this brings the files up to you come to a collection point. only in the united kingdom a little mauna borrell railways are used but anyway i will stop talking to the medium of-- but whenever i asked to see. as for the files, well, i note it is my-- minear personality disorder but my idea of real heaven is being placed in the

building as big as this or even bigger, the whole thing full of files and i'm just landing in the middle of it and i am told to work out what is going on. that is why it was just incredible fun. it really was. i became a cheerful person while i was doing this. so how did life more seriously work it out? you have to prioritize so i had a part-time research team which consisted of people from outside as well as inside but the three approaches that i took were the following. first i looked at the files, which i identified mi5's relationship with government in the form of not only ten downing street but also with the health secretary at the home office which has day-to-day control. what does tell you is what was thought sufficiently important by mi5 and what mi5 thug was sufficiently important.

secondly if you know how people are spending money and it doesn't matter if someone is talking about the individual if you know how the resources are being spent. the other thing of course is veterans. it doesn't matter whether someone is writing a family history of the history of mi5. it is not always written down. if anyone attempted to write a history of any family representative here based on the evidence it wouldn't work, so hundreds and hundreds and hundreds, not all conducted by me but the first sentence which always attracted me was the following sentence of course this was not written down. i could go on and on and on but i am very disciplined and i'm not going to do so. >> mr. andrew, some 400,000 files have been destroyed by

mi5. were there any files that you really wanted to take a look at that you were not able to achieve? >> yes, the 400,000 were not destroy them by the way i was naive to think that i assumed before it went in that they file is just a single volume whereas in fact there many files many dealing with people from cambridge university which got 50 volumes so they are actually several million. the ones that were destroyed that the most regretted the destruction of where the files which had to do with the last quarter of the center of the history of the biggest empire of the history of the world than the reason they were destroyed was not because there were particularly embarrassing because once britain had an empire in any case the main intelligence responsibility for placing pastor in 1970 no longer had anything to do with mi5 responsibility so they got rid of them and that was i did find

that depressing, but actually of course because so much of the contents were copied to other files i was able to reconstruct a significant number of them so you will find in the book that there are to link the chapters on the end of the empire and even though there is not the complete series of any of the exchanges between mi5 headquarters and the security liaison officers is the mi5 representatives were called in any of the former colonies. you'll be able to judge from the two chapters how far i've been able to reconstruct them but those of the ones whose destruction of the most regretted. >> one thing i could not find in the index of the book is the duke of windsor. it is widely believed that he was a traitor and there is incontrovertible evidence that anything, was this the province of mi5 during his brief reign afterwards and can you comment

on this? >> what a pleasure to be able to blame the index. [laughter] the duke of windsor was in fact there, but he was an insignificant little idiot who just happen to be related to the royal family and therefore he was elected special branch. i think he was to idiotic even to deserve the special attention of the branch. i could go on about his wife but i want. [laughter] >> i was wondering in terms of tracing history on this, this century. maxene is rather short. is the only mi that goes back to henry viii and elizabeth and the various henchman working on behalf of them or is there any counterpart to mi5 that has earlier roots? >> you see one of the confidence tricks that british intelligence has perpetrated on our european friends i used rather loosely is to persuade them that we have

had the world's leading intelligence service ever since elizabeth the first. i have quoted it in my book, the war office noticing that we have no spies anywhere in the world and there's a document saying fortunately none of the foreigners realize this. what happens from time to time from moses intel burnham cal is from time to time people see the need for spies both in britain, but there is just no continuous history, but let me briefly share with you the history of my cambridge college. we had in the 15 eighties a really smart spy. his name was christopher marville, an incredible career. many significant minorities of british intelligence officers had gone on to be really successful authors but christopher marlowe in his 20s, if you lived into his 30's or

40's would have given william shakespeare a really difficult rounds. riding some of the greatest works in british history. he has simultaneously-- but he is killed in what is sometimes described is pump but more accurately described as a bordello in 19-- start again, 1599. you would think that my corpus christi college would remember him with pride but actually did the worst thing a student can do. he left without paying his college bill. [laughter] no continuous history from him. >> we will leave little time for the signing. we will make this the last

question. >> we can go all day on the business but i was surprised to find that you made no mention whatsoever of the new book and the new evidence that he writes about concerning the alleged recruitment of hollis in shanghai. >> there is no new evidence. i think by the time anyone gets into the mid-90s and i do hope to reach my mid-90s, that is absolutely the only way i would regard him as a role model. the evidence that he produced at the time was absurd. it is absurd and it will remain answered. the man who was actually mose convinced by the fact that soviet intelligence was going to be a post war problem and who was insisting was kept a lid, the only person for example who was suspicious will of blunt welby was in mi5 and put it on

the record. it needs a very long pressed. >> you are not addressing my question which is a saga published in 1996. >> i am not addressing that do you will forgive me for saying that i am familiar. i have been to estonia and i have seen a number of files. i do not take anything that chapman pincher says about roger hollis seriously. that might be a personality disorder and my park. i would simply say to shared by 99% of british historians who have looked at this evidence. >> thank you so much for coming. [applause] >> krista grandeur is the former history chair at cambridge university. he is the founding co-editor of the journal intelligence and national security.

he is chair of the british intelligence study group. mr. andrew is the author of "the sword and the shield." this event was hosted by an international spy museum in washington, d.c.. for more information visit spy museum.org. >> senators are continuing their debate on the health care bill through the weekend. our regular booktv schedule will be pre-empted during these rare senate sessions with booktv programs resuming after the debate. watts the senate debate on health care live gavel-to-gavel here on c-span2, the only network with a full debate unedited and commercial-free. to read the senate bill and the house version plus watch video-on-demand go on line to c-span's health care hub.

>> i am here with vali nasr, professor of international studies at tufts university and author of the new book, "forces of fortune" the rise of the new muslim middle class and what it will mean for our world. you are the new muslim middle class? >> it is people whose livelihoods are connected to private sector who has integrated into the world economy. they are businessmen, their finance years. there also professionals that they are people who are like middle class and asia, latin america, people we identifies part of the new globalization forces, new economic forces and we often don't see them in the middle class. we always think about extremist or authoritarian government or fundamentalist but we don't think about the social classes in the muslim world, the way it

connects to economic and wide to the matter in terms of all the things we think about the muslim world. >> of focus on i ran in this book. how the birds are the social classes and iran? >> again when we think about iran we don't realize iran has a vibrant middle class. there has been a significant amount of economic privatization in the 1980's and 1990's that produce the middle-class tied to economic activity of the private sector. even though most of by rand's economy is dominated by the government still there is a large part of the middle class that depends on the private sector activity. is that private sector in the middle class and iran responsible for cultural activity and demand for political freedoms and reforms. when amici iranians take to the streets demanding better results for the elections are demanding political freedoms these are people who also want integration into the world economy, better relations with the west and they

want economic advancement so even the backbone of political change and iran as the middle class. >> how large is this middle-class? >> some are larger and some are smaller but say in countries like turkey, there are maybe 20 to 30% of the population. in pakistan or parts ten to 15% of the population. they are typically not the largest, but the ones that are account for the most amount of an economic dynamism and the sector of the economy that are most active and which is private sector activity is the one that is ultimately going to pull the lease by its bootstraps and integrate into the local economy. it is not the issue of size but the issue of the pivotal role that will play. >> we look at the middle east and we think of religion but in your book you talk a lot about capitalism and business. can you discuss the dichotomy between religion and capitalism

in the middle these? >> religion and capitalism can coexist the way they do an american. it is the same in the muslim world as well. what makes the difference is that capitalist muslims or integrated in the global economy tend to favor interpretations of religion that supports their economic activities and serve their interests. in other words they don't favor extremism because extremism is not good for business, because extremism does not interfere with their integration into global economic trends, so when we look at countries like turkey, like dubai, malaysia and indonesia we see medal classes that are getting enriched by the global economy that see their future as religious but the kind of religion they follow is in some ways globalization so it is conservative, it is paez but it supports capitalist activity in

living harmoniously with others in a global economy. >> what ramifications to is the business class have an american foreign policy? >> we don't pay as much attention to them as we ought to. we don't think of the fact of what transform china transformed india, transformed latin america, eastern europe and asia that created a stable, prosperous democracies was the middle class in those countries that were dependent on private sectors that were integrated in the global economy and we don't think in the muslim world you are not going to get them to where brazil, argentina taiwan or unless the same class the gut those countries to where they are also becomes an power in the muslim world so we are looking for the solution and the muslim world without looking at what is the force that is supposed to produce this solution and i think the change agent in the muslim world ultimately will

have to come from the middle class and from the capitalist business sector associated with them. >> vali nasr author of "forces of fortune," thank you so much. >> thank you. >> in his book scroogenomics, a business professor joel waldfogel says that americans waste billions of dollars on presents during the holiday season. he says that they were attached to the gifts by those who receive them as less than with the gift costs. the university of pennsylvania bookstore in philadelphia is the host of this event. it is about an hour. >> thank you very much. it is a delight to be here in philadelphia as it is always did the lights i want to talk about my book, scroogenomics, why shouldn't buy presents for the holidays. after all what is santa claus ever do to me? i have nothing against endic was, maybe a little but my view is that the way we celebrate christmas and the gift-giving holidays is with an of value

destruction. in fact i'm going to try to make the case this evening that's around the world we waste, not spend it weighs $25 billion per year. it just goes up in smoke, destroyed. through the process of non-careful gifting, so that is the agenda for tonight. that is about his bombastic as it will get but i will try to be rational. the book actually doesn't have any pictures or tables but tonight's presentation, you get sort of a bonus. i'm going to show you lots of pictures. okay, so what is the problem with holiday spending? what is the problem in the first place? normally if i spend $50 to buy something for myself i will only choose something if it is worth at least $50, so normal spending during 11 months of the year let's say provides an underestimate of the amount of satisfaction that spending produces. and again if i only spent 50, if